I used to be a strictly no limit poker player. I used the past tense there because I think I may have seen the limit poker light. I used to look down my nose at the limit players thinking, "Oh look at the nitty old men. Too scared to play no limit...a real man's game."
Last night I played my fourth session in a row at Prairie Meadows of 3-6 limit holdem with a full kill and each time I've left with somewhere in the neighborhood of $100 profit. Every time I go the table dynamic is pretty much the same:
2-3 decent players
2-3 loose-passive nits just chasing straight and flush draws
1-2 classic calling stations
1-2 no limit players killing time waiting for a seat who are tilted by all the draw chasing
Almost all of the players are positively leaking tells and might as well be playing with their cards face up. Most players only bet when they have something and will call all the way to the river with any draw or almost any pair. The majority of players only bet when they have a made hand of some sort and don't see the value in betting their draws. I've made the majority of my profit betting on combo flush/straight draws and getting paid off when I hit them. I also try to play as many hands in position against the nits and calling stations as possible while avoiding the players that are at least a little tricky.
I have to fight the urge to limp from early position along with 7-8 other players with weak cards. It's so easy to get in the mindset of "everybody's doing it, so I will too." At first I worried that people might catch on that I was playing tighter than others at the table, but most of them don't seem to be able to see past their own two cards. The ones that did notice that I was betting draws and not necessarily made hands were just that much more eager to play with me when I had big made hands like flopped sets or full houses.
My tactics are pretty simple:
* Avoid the good players
* If the nits bet, fold unless I have a really solid drawing hand
* Call or raise in position with pairs, suited broadway cards, and connectors
* Bet any made hands or draws to build pots worth winning and punish the calling stations
* Encourage people to play with me by being friendly
* Sooth the wounds of the nits when you snap them off on the river (oooo sorry, I got lucky)
* Don't bitch when they hit their 3 or 4 outer against my made hands
I have to admit I enjoy seeing the no limit players go on super monkey tilt when their big over pair gets run down for the third or fourth time in the session and they can't push anybody out of the pot. That used to be me. It's for sure a different game and you're not going to get rich playing it (unless you hit the bad beat jackpot), but I'm having fun playing and slowly building up my bankroll. Maybe once I get it up to a few thousand I'll jump back into the no limit game, but I promise to no longer look down on my low limit brethren.
I used to play exclusively limit. In some ways it seems harder. For instance you can play perfect poker all night long in NL and then either screw up on hand or get monkey fucked by some donkey and your entire night is gone.
ReplyDeleteWhere in limit you lose a hand usually it is not your entire stack.
I think that when 7-8 people see every hand you have to devalue big pairs unless they set-up or boat up early. I am not sure what the right adjustments are but yours sound good.. I gotta think you make your most money on sooted broadway/connector cards and lose the most on big pairs getting rivered.
It is nice that smaller suited cards can be played since you are rarely calling off your entire stack with a smaller flush vs a nut flush... so you can lose that extra bet on the river instead of being forced to fold...
Different game for sure. Takes a lot of patience to not go on monkey tilt.
How cute, Piano Man takes a step back in the whole evolution of Poker and tries to spin it like it's a good thing.
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Hey man, as long as you are having fun it doesn't matter if you're playing Limit, No Limit or PLO - just get out and enjoy yourself and piss off a local nit - that's always good times!
I enjoy no limit, but I just don't have the roll for it right now. I'm poor. Or at the least cheap...
DeleteAnd my mediocre no limit game gets positively awful when I'm playing with scared money.
* Encourage people to play with me by being friendly
ReplyDelete* Sooth the wounds of the nits when you snap them off on the river (oooo sorry, I got lucky)
* Don't bitch when they hit their 3 or 4 outer against my made hands
Similar to my philosophy. I play poker to have fun. When it is not fun I rack up my chips and leave.
I'm not always the life of the party at the poker table, but you for sure won't see me tapping the glass. I'm more likely to be sprinkling the fish food in the water.
DeleteThe only time I ever speak up is if I think somebody is doing something illegal or unethical. For instance the other night the young Mexican and Persian I described in my previous post had a clear and spoken agreement to check it down if they were the only two remaining in the pot. "Dude! It's just you and me." "Oh sorry. I check then." I asked them at one point what difference it made who they were playing against and stopped just short of using the word collusion. I kept waiting for a dealer to do or say something too, but they're not risking tips over a 3-6 limit game.
Not really sure if the dealer, or the floor, or the house could do anything about this. You can't force someone to bet. If they were talking when a third party was in the hand and it appeared they were raising back and forth to get more money from the third party, that would be one thing. But if it's just the two of them, while that may be annoying, just checking it down--even if they do it every time--doesn't seem to me to be any real violation.
DeleteIn this situation - which I have had come up before - You can talk to the floor and tell them that you do not feel comfortable playing in this game because of the action of the two buddies.
DeleteWhile you could request a table change to get yourself out of the situation you still do not feel it is fair to the other players at the table and feel it could lead to some situations where they bet in a manner to get others out of the hand and then check it down between themselves - or collusion as you say.
Thus, you feel it is perfectly reasonable that the floor should maybe monitor those two and put them on separate tables if they are witnessing the same thing you are.
Congrats, you're onto something JT... ;)
ReplyDeleteI found this very interesting because, as you know, I did the reverse. After years of playing almost nothing but limit, I've been playing mostly NL lately. I'm glad you find it profitiable to play limit--I never could. I actually am doing much better, winning wise, at NL than I ever did at limit. I suppose it may be because of the style I play. I'm wondering if now that I have all these NL concepts in my head (and in my game), I might have more success at limit?
ReplyDeleteI honestly think the biggest advantage I gained from playing so much no limit before is that it's so much more important to play the player in no limit. I've gotten so used to trying to pick up tells and determine what a certain action from a certain player means based on how they acted in similar situations earlier in the session. Like I said up above...the majority of the limit players I've encountered just don't seem to do that. They care about their cards and the board cards and only seem to think about what their opponent might be holding once four to a straight or three of the same suit hit the board.
DeleteOne big tell: Preflop, no one ever raises. If they do, look out, it's A-A or occasionally K-K.
ReplyDeleteNL players love their big over-pairs. Those hands, however, don't play well in multi-way pots. The suited connectors or low pairs, hoping to hit a set, do. Even hands like 10-9 offsuit are playable along with suited aces or kings. Even though they think they do, the NL kids don't get it.
I raised preflop at more than almost anybody else at my table. I did it with A-A and flopped a set which turned into Aces full of Jacks on the turn and they still called me all the way to the river. (Too bad nobody had pocket jacks or I would have won $35,000 from the bad beat jackpot.) I also did it with 4-5h on the button. Caught two hearts on the flop, bet, third heart on the turn, bet, river was inconsequential, bet. Still got called the whole way by the guy who flopped middle pair with a crappy kicker. And he seemed upset that I raised preflop with that hand.
DeleteIt's funny - when I learned about odds when I first started playing and the ONLY game close to me was a 1/2 LIMIT game I used to raise preflop and on the flop a ton just to make sure I could properly call down with my flush/straight draws lol.
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